"Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." Malachi 4:5
Nations are breaking, Israel's awaking, The signs that the prophets foretold; The Gentile days numbered with horrors encumbered; Eternity soon will unfold.
Much like the Pandemic, the NPO registration and more so the FIU regulations have plunged FBOs into a state of “new normal. Although legal and statutory compliance is normal for our organization, in many respects, the legislation imposes some harsh measures that are deemed to be onerous on our existing systems, and those that cut deep into some long-held religious beliefs. Moreover, compliance with the new regulations requires the establishment of a more robust organizational structure that is able to respond adequately to the demands of the legislation. In the main, the discussion will review the process from two angles: 1. Our experience with the NPO registration process. 2. Compliance with existing FIU regulations and how it is likely to impact FBOs.
Transcript
0:05
hi good afternoon everyone again let us get on the way with this iggs
0:13
lunchtime seminar as you know igds has had a long history
0:18
of hosting these lunchtime seminars and today it is our pleasure
0:23
to have miss valerie charles with us to speak about the way in which
0:30
faith-based organizations are experiencing the the npo
0:35
registration and the other ensuing protocols around that bit of
0:41
legislation so valerie said something very interesting about the um about the act she said like
0:49
like the pandemic the npo registration and more so the fiu legislation
0:58
have plunged fdus into a state of a new normal so we're going to ask who is you might
1:04
be asking who is valerie valerie charles is the holder of an msc in marketing
1:10
management from nottingham trent university and a postgraduate qualification
1:15
in marketing from the chartered institute of marketing miss charles's career has allowed her to
1:22
pursue her passions finding education advertising marketing tourism and
1:28
consultancy she has lectured at both the uwi
1:34
and the westernly school of theology in the areas of marketing and communications
1:39
apart from her experience in education and training miss charles has spent over a decade
1:45
leading creative teams in advertising in the advertising industry throughout the
1:51
caribbean as an independent marketing and research consultant she has earned a solid reputation
1:59
developing marketing programs to help small and medium-sized local businesses build
2:05
their brands alongside a consultancy business she serves
2:11
the pentecostal assemblies of the west indies as the national administrator and
2:17
strategic advisor to the general executive miss valerie charles i'm handing over to
2:24
you now thank you for being with us
2:32
so i i want to give a little bit of power pentecostal assemblies of the west indies was established in
2:39
1910 and this organization is a religious organization it's operating in seven
2:46
caribbean countries including trinidad and tobago in trinidad and tobago the organization
2:53
comprises 120 churches a theological institution with a main
2:59
campus and two branches we have five district offices we have a missionary agency
3:06
and emergency response agency so today i'm
3:12
dealing with my presentations will presentation will be coming from two angles
3:17
in the first instance we'll be talking about the registration process and specifically our experience and
3:25
then we'll be looking at compliance with existing regulation and how it is likely to impact not just
3:33
our organization but of course other fbos and so to talk a little bit about the
3:40
process we started the process for us and that is the npo registration that would have started
3:47
for us in january 2020.
3:52
when we set out to to do this registration our intent initially was to bulk register
4:00
or to have all of our 120 churches registered at the same time of course
4:06
when we attempted to do that we were told um that could not have happened so we had to have
4:12
each church individually registered uh following that our plan was
4:18
intentional and so what we did was we decided to
4:23
register one church and use that one church as a model and
4:30
following the successful what we thought would have been a successful registration we then use it
4:36
as a template to register the other 119 churches and of course
4:42
the five districts and all the other entities that make up power pentecostal assemblies of the west
4:48
indies so let me tell you a little bit of the outcome of the first registration so i personally did that
4:54
um down to rgd um department went with this one
5:01
registration and um i was told by my initial feeling at that time that the persons
5:09
were not aware they were not familiar with the registration process in fact i was told that um the church
5:16
had to be incorporated and so the research had to be done that's the normal thing so
5:22
the research had to be done and and incorporation had to be done but i had in my hands
5:27
documents um which informed us that of course we could have
5:32
registered as an unincorporated entity um was about to leave and then i just
5:38
turned back and i went back to inquiry and asked who else can i talk to
5:44
and someone um directed me to a legal department i went up to legal department
5:50
had a conversation they seemed to be um a little amazed that the other departments weren't aware
5:56
of of the registration and the process um with some minor amendments to my
6:02
registration um i was able to get it done and in fact was able to receive
6:09
the certificate in five days and so that was good and so what happened next
6:17
so using that model we went on to have seminars with all of our leaders and our
6:23
churches uh we gave instruction how this is to be done i in what i did following that was
6:30
actually a model application form so so the application at that point
6:36
you have to fill out two forms and the first is the um the register general form which is a
6:43
single page and there is a five page document which is the fiu form to be filled out so i actually did a
6:50
sample form gave it to all of the churches and said this is what you're going to do further to that i actually developed a
6:57
package a package so each church had a package and so the intent was
7:02
you just follow this model and you're going to be all right and so yes we did that um from that
7:08
point we establish a policy of information sharing and i think it worked well for
7:13
us and the intent of this is that when you go to the um to the regis the registrar department if
7:21
you had any experience that was outside of what we gave to you come share it with us
7:26
and we share it with the other churches and so we did so we did but what happened um
7:33
for the first six months of the process and you know as i said we started in 2020 so that would have included
7:40
the the the pandemic period and so that was a very difficult time for registration not only um
7:48
we now had to make so prior prior to the pandemic you could just walk in and
7:54
have your registration done um but what happened you know had to make an appointment
8:00
and that was a very difficult process the employees one rotation um you'd call a thousand times before
8:06
you can get through so so there was a little difficult time in actually getting the appointment made
8:11
but more than that the requirements for each person that went in each church
8:18
that went in the requirement appeared to be different different from what i experienced and
8:25
different from what other persons would have experienced in fact one church was turned away four
8:30
times and and that is because every time they they corrected the form
8:36
and they went back into the office they would encounter a different person and that person would
8:41
have some different requirement um that was not um made provisions for that was not made before
8:48
and um this this this was a very difficult time um
8:54
what what followed was um and this book well um finally what followed is that the
9:02
registered general department decided that before you come in you fill out your
9:07
form you send it in we will vet the form when we think that you have met all the requirements
9:13
then you actually come into the office so that worked that worked well and it helped to to
9:18
move the process along um a little faster of course we had other issues with
9:24
um identification the use of the the national id versus the driver's
9:29
permit and so on but we were able to overcome that and at the end of the day
9:35
since then we were able to register 119
9:42
of our 120 churches all five districts were registered the missionary agency is
9:49
registered the emergency response center is registered and the theological institution is also registered for the
9:56
most part most of these institutions would have received a registration certificate
10:04
so the the next arm of the process would be compliance with the existing
10:11
fiu regulations and so let me give you a sense of how we operate as an
10:16
organization so i mentioned 120 churches
10:22
all of our churches are headed by a pastor and is managed by him or who along with a board of
10:28
directors all of our churches we have treasurers or accountants
10:35
and a secretary depending on the size of the congregation
10:40
the amount of employees and when i speak about employees i'm talking about paid positions
10:45
they may vary from one person to 15 in some cases maybe a little more so for
10:52
the most part the positions that are held at churches are voluntary positions
10:58
and except for the pastor and if there's a full-time secretary or an administrator those would be paid
11:03
positions but for the most part the boards function free um mostly other departments or the
11:10
functional areas are people who um volunteer their service um to the church all churches have
11:17
direct reported districts as i mentioned before um our organization
11:22
the structure in trinidad would be five districts and so the within the districts you have
11:29
churches that fall within the districts and those churches report to the district any districts report to the national
11:35
council where i am and the primary income of churches of course is derived from donations
11:42
given by members so the the those entities that fall
11:51
under the fiu supervision who are those entities so those are the entities with the
11:56
annual income so churches with annual income or districts with annual income
12:02
over 500 000. now the determination
12:07
um for the fiu supervision is based when you look at the form the
12:13
criteria it's based only on the entity's previous income year so if
12:21
if and in a few cases there may be something that is unusual or
12:27
temporary situation so let's say um a church is is is raising funds and so you had
12:34
um an unusual income coming in and it may have been
12:41
it just so happened to be the year prior it means that that church would now fall
12:47
under the supervision of the fiu because for that income year
12:53
you your your records would have shown that you would have earned in excess or received let me use it
13:00
would receive in excess of five hundred thousand dollars so so there are those unusual
13:06
situations or and and i i chose to call them temporary because they are not the usual
13:13
experiences of the church over a number of years so so you may have one situation cause
13:19
plunging a church into the under that arm that situation of being under the
13:25
the supervision of this of the fiu and so what i want to look at is um
13:33
three areas three basic areas the impact of the fiu regulations and
13:39
so there's a financial impact there's a cultural impact and i also want to speak to the spiritual
13:46
impact of the regulations let's talk a little bit of financial
13:51
impact so i am i am pulling from the the finance financial obligation
14:00
regulation and i'm looking specifically in this case at three and four
14:05
and one requirement speaks to um retaining the services of a
14:11
compliance officer and an alternate compliance officer now this is
14:17
these are two professionals and so what it says every supervised entity non-regulated
14:23
financial institution and listed businesses and we um fbos fall under what is called
14:30
listed businesses must appoint a compliance officer and an alternate compliance officer
14:37
and so what is the implication for now remember i just said earlier on that they they um in terms of the
14:44
stuffing of these churches they may vary from one employee to 15 and in some cases maybe just a
14:51
little more based on the size of the congregation and this the regulation is asking
14:59
for um the engagement of the services of a compliance officer and an alternate
15:06
compliance officer and so let me tell you a little bit about who this person is who they asking
15:12
for so the appointment of the employee there must be a well
15:17
trained and this is coming from the regulation must be a well-trained person suitable
15:23
to perform the task additionally the the ceo and the acl must
15:28
they must have decision making authority for listed businesses which we are the the designated ceo can be a
15:36
senior employee of the business or competent professionals with qualifications in law
15:42
in accountancy in business management or in relevant qualification and some knowledge and so on the ceo and
15:49
the acm must be approved and so we have this um other uh
15:55
factor here that the both of them must be approved but by the fiu and so the
16:02
church doesn't have the singular authority to determine um so you can
16:08
present a person to the fiu and say um this this person we want this person to be
16:17
our um compliance officer but it requires the approval
16:23
of the fiu and so let me remind us here that as i said before some of these
16:30
churches may not have the professional staff to undertake that responsibility um
16:38
with the the in most cases um we have the pastors who are responsible
16:44
overall responsible for the churches they are like the ceos and they're responsible
16:50
for the management of of the churches and so in this case we are looking for
16:56
someone outside um with the responsibility and and the
17:01
law says specifically that that person reports to the fiu so
17:06
if they if the um compliance officer suspects that there is something that is
17:11
country happening internally that person's responsibility is to report that matter
17:18
directly in fact the law says that that is the only person that can report
17:23
to the fiu and so um it it creates some problem
17:31
um because a lot of the churches the existing structure does not provide for such professional
17:38
staff in some cases in some cases and so it means that um it means that the the church would
17:45
have to go outside outside of the boundaries of the church to to um get that person to fill that
17:52
position the the other issue here is there is a
17:58
requirement of monitoring international and local lists now we've been looking at this um and this
18:06
is it even though it may appear to be something that is easy it's a very difficult undertaking so what they
18:12
what the legislation is asking that we reque we monitor international and local lists to
18:18
determine whether members or donors names on those lists and so we have the u.n security
18:25
this this first one this this list and this is um of course the names of person will be
18:31
carrying the in this list who whose names are flagged and determined to be in um either involved in money
18:38
laundering or or financing um financing of terrorism
18:44
we also have the trinidad tobago consolidated list of court orders and of course when we talk about open source
18:50
um newspaper and media and so on so there is a requirement that we must now look um on these lists
18:57
and so it's a costly undertaking because we we attempted to um implement um the first one
19:06
and that first lets the u.n security council list the cost for doing so for sub the
19:12
subscription is 5100 usd per user
19:17
per user um in in addition to that what we'd what we'd
19:24
encounter is that the implementation of this particular um requirement
19:31
will also um require us to hire have more staff within the within the churches um again
19:38
i want to emphasize the fact that a lot of the persons who are working in the church they have
19:44
their services are voluntary um of course some of the church don't have the capacity to do it they don't have
19:51
the financing to do it and beside that is it's very labor intensive it's labor
19:57
intensive because it means that if if a new member comes into the church because that person if
20:02
you're a member you automatically become a donor and what happens is that we would now
20:08
have four for existing members so we'd have to go back and and look at existing members and
20:14
we'll also have to go back and search for for for these names of persons who are coming in as new members search
20:21
these lists to determine whether these persons after their names are flagged for any
20:26
anything that is illegal that is um very very difficult for for many of our churches and when we
20:32
take the cost factor into consideration almost prohibitive
20:38
we also have um when we talk about the the the we have also other requirements
20:47
talk about the due diligence um there's a need for
20:55
um there's a need for looking at looking at
21:02
right the compliance program now this is a major part the compliance
21:07
program is a major part of the responsibility of um
21:13
an organization or entity that falls under the supervision of of the fiu what does that require
21:20
it requires it's it's actually required a lot of technical skills and
21:27
you'd see some of the things the the requirements here um customer new due diligence
21:32
id identification of internal reporting so so we um that program requires the
21:38
church to put in place um a program where you can monitor suspicious activity it needs
21:46
to put in place um uh development of a threshold for for for
21:52
payment so we're talking about source of funds you would be most of you will be familiar when you go to the banks
21:59
um that that uh you'd have if you bring some some of
22:04
money that is above the bank's threshold you'll be required to fill out a a source of fun document and
22:11
so on now this is the easy part um but in terms of management and
22:16
retention of um the transaction determining a major part of this is risk assessment
22:24
so the compliance program for the most part requires churches to determine
22:31
the risk that that that that the church is likely to face
22:37
they need to develop programs how to mitigate in fact you need to assess the risk is
22:42
it a high um the likelihood is high low or medium you need to determine how it's going to
22:48
impact the organization and of course you need to develop strategies on how to mitigate against
22:54
those risks um you need to also to identify the level
22:59
um organization structure so one of the things we'd have to do is review the organization structure where
23:05
are we going to place the ceo and the acu um the the law tells us they
23:11
must be in a position where they can make in decision making so all of that um how we monitor publish
23:19
um publish the list that i referred to earlier and so all of that forms part of your
23:26
compliance program now now we we understand that for each
23:32
church be dependent on the risk um that is anticipated the compliance program may vary
23:39
nonetheless the each must develop once you fall under the fiu you must
23:45
develop your comp your compliance program and so i'm saying that uh a financial implication if for the
23:53
churches is that you would need to get to to um have the resources
23:58
of technical staff because this whole process is something that is very technical in terms of risk assessment and so on and so this is
24:06
additional um staff and of course additional income expenditure for churches
24:18
so i don't know why
24:36
all right so we we um so we look at the the financial aspect
24:43
and we have the the issue of of the cultural aspect
24:50
and i want to speak to i want to speak to um the legislation relating to
24:58
um the source of funds and i alluded it alluded to it earlier on
25:03
um so okay so before before i get it let me talk a little bit about the the
25:09
financial audit and again this is a financial this is an implication of
25:14
financial implication on churches they there are two audits that are required one
25:19
an internal audit and an external audit and so the entity will be required to
25:25
have someone do an internal audit and basically what this is it is to ensure that the
25:32
church is compliant with the finance with the with the um program that they have set
25:38
in writing and the fi you will also uh be doing and that is the external
25:45
order the fru will also be doing an audit um and again what we are looking for
25:50
compliance the day how close the church remains with its compliance program to ensure
25:56
um the implementation and effectiveness of of the internal controls
26:02
reporting obligations and so on um they are going to be looking at the operations of the church and see how it
26:09
matches with the compliance document and so i want to look at the second
26:16
thing is the cultural impact so there is a part of the regulation that speaks to
26:23
and the financial obligation regulation and that is 15 and it speaks to due
26:28
diligence diligence and knowing your members and i'll just have extrapolated a little
26:35
bit of it and what is the requirement the completion of a very detailed membership
26:40
application so one of the one of the requirement is that we now have to
26:47
ensure that each church um there's a a very detailed membership
26:54
form that members must know fill out now this is not just for persons who are
27:01
coming into the system of new persons coming into the church but if you have been there before
27:07
you would know how to fill out this form because some of our churches they do have membership application and i can tell
27:14
you that the membership application that is no use it is not compliant in what i mean is that it
27:21
doesn't have all of the requirements that is not required by the fiu
27:28
there is an additional requirement for for example for persons who serve on church boards
27:33
i i want to go back and stress that those persons their service their services are
27:40
voluntary and so for persons who serve on the church board they have the additional requirement of
27:46
obtaining a police record of good character now i'll tell you something since this has been
27:52
introduced to the churches we have a number of persons who would have resigned from church boards and we have some folks that are retired
27:58
we have some other younger folks they have responsibilities on their job and so on and they just don't want to be
28:04
bothered with this additional um requirement so what are the implications for us
28:09
right generally people are unwilling to divulge some of the personal information so i
28:15
will tell you that form requires um almost everything's uh name
28:22
address it requires salary range it requires information on
28:28
your employment and so on and for the most part um we find members
28:34
finds the requirement is is is very intrusive and in fact there are some persons who
28:40
are unwilling to complete the forms um and as i said because
28:46
most board members they they serve voluntarily um a lot of times not a lot but some a
28:52
few have withdrawn from service and there's a couple more who are considering it people are
28:58
generally concerned again also about the protection of their personal information
29:04
so let's just think about a church you have been a member of for 20 years you've never filled out a
29:10
membership application form you're considered to be a member um but now you're being asked by this
29:17
church to um fill out this two-page application form um because it requires so
29:25
much details people be become very suspicious and people are very concerned about what
29:32
will happen with the information information they are provided and how will this information be protected
29:38
um in in some cases we have to continuously um implement some educational
29:45
um programs and keep saying this is a requirement by the law and we have to do it um because the in some cases it the
29:52
information is attributed to the church or the church just want to find a little more about us and so it's it's
29:59
it's it's a difficult journey for us because you this is a um it's something new people a lot of
30:05
churches are not used to it a lot of members are not used to divulging such detailed information
30:12
and it has been ruled out in in the majority of our churches we are getting
30:17
some some feedback um people um the apprehensions that are coming out it's very concerning
30:23
for us uh of course we also have the issue of
30:29
the politically exposed again regulation 20 of the financial obligation regulation
30:36
2010 it's required and and this came out from the from the the
30:42
regulation a financial institution or listed business shall put appropriate measures in place to
30:48
determine whether an upper an applicant for business or account or beneficial owner is politically is a politically
30:56
exposed person here's the difficulty
31:01
um when information is being sourced now we are talking about
31:06
um the application form so part of the application form um we we have asked in the membership
31:12
application form um we have given the definition and the description of a
31:18
politically exposed person and we have asked so if you fit if you fit that criteria
31:24
then there is a another form that you have to fill out and so the question is
31:29
um if persons don't divulge because in some of these cases you wouldn't you would not know
31:34
um if person a person are unwilling to divulge such information what is
31:40
what what is it the church supposed to do and and we look also at the nation and the
31:45
role of the church because the church has now to take on an investigative role
31:51
and because he has a law saying that you'd enlisted business they should they um shall put appropriate measure in
31:58
place to determine whether um how what what are those measures we'd have to investigate persons when they
32:04
come in what is the background of those person where are they coming from and so on um so this is additional function that
32:10
that is um not untraditional as far as the church is concerned
32:16
and uh i finally want to look at the spiritual impact and i mentioned earlier we
32:23
the issue of the source of funds and this is very um this is very
32:31
important um for religious organization and
32:37
so the requirement members need to declare the activity event
32:43
business occupation or employment generate and the funds they are donating to the church now
32:50
prior to this happening one of the requirements and i would have mentioned it earlier on one of the requirements
32:57
of the legislation is that the church need each entity needs to determine
33:05
uh a threshold for the receipt of funds and what i'm saying here
33:10
is that you will determine the church will determine what amount of money what is the
33:16
threshold we will set and what amount of monies persons would donate to the church or
33:21
give to the church um without having to fill out a source of funds
33:26
form um in in in some cases we we we started um we did
33:34
um and i'll talk a little bit about standardization a little later on but what we would have done is try for
33:41
our organization to set a threshold and it and and it's difficult because it
33:46
varies from from church from church to church from congregation to conjugation so you have some persons who are who are
33:54
big givers you have um smaller givers and we have now to determine what's a middle ground
34:00
that we can set of course we do not want um to put um our members in a position
34:07
where if they are given every monday they need to fill out this source of fund document
34:13
every month and i think that is going to be um um very discouraging for them now for the most part giving is a is a
34:21
private matter and i'm talking about the spiritual impact given as a private matter and of course
34:27
the concept is drawn from the bible and have given a quotation matthew three and four and what it says that the right hand
34:33
should not know what the left is doing um when that is translated
34:38
literally it means that um if you are if you are uh given then your
34:46
given is something that is private and not necessarily to be told to others the amount and and
34:53
and so on now the implication of the legislation um one of the things we have to look at
35:00
is the the christian community for the christian community giving is an
35:06
act of worship to god and so it is seen as something that is sacred it is seen as something that is
35:13
personal i don't need to tell you how much i'm giving and so when we talk about source of
35:20
funds it means that people will now have to um not just write their names and
35:27
provide information um we do have envelopes and churches but people are free
35:32
as it stands now some people would put their their gifts in in the envelope and some people put
35:38
their names on it some people just don't bother to put their names because they hold strictly to the
35:43
concept of not letting a writer know what elephant is doing and so they did it
35:50
so so as i said for the christian community giving is an act of worship and so
35:57
when we have legislation that that that appears to be going country to that
36:04
um it is cause for a bit of concern and so they see giving us something sacred they see it as personal and for many person
36:12
the the legislation makes it a little difficult for them for for persons to balance
36:17
their desire to give or to engage in this act of worship and to remain anonymous and so what the
36:24
actors saying to us now if you where the legislation is concerned we have to be accountable
36:30
um beyond the source of funds beyond the source of funds um churches the churches are required
36:37
to um to say where where the income is coming from and so you could have you could have um
36:44
in the past make a general statement or give a general figure and say
36:49
this this amount came from given this amount came from whatever but now you have to be specific
36:57
more specific about the source of of refunds now the other implications
37:04
so members will now have to we as we say complete the source of fun form if the donation
37:09
is over the threshold that is set by the church it is also it is difficult and and this
37:16
is one of the issues we have it is difficult for a church to monitor giving it is it is not done
37:23
if you're going to the bank it is easy for a bank to implement source of funds because
37:30
if you go with a check to deposit in your account at that point the bank can say let me
37:36
see your ido and you fill out this source of form um offerings and collections in church are
37:41
done differently so if you um all of you may have been in a church before
37:47
a basket is faster wrong people put their offerings in now it's very difficult to monitor
37:55
what is given it is difficult to monitor who has given and so only after the fact
38:04
when the the the accountant or the treasurer is is tabulating what has been
38:09
collected then at that point you will have to determine um if someone has placed funds in there
38:16
that is over the threshold if the person has left the church if the person just came in and dropped and left
38:22
um in fact the counting of these funds are not done during these services they are done after
38:28
so in any event you only discover what is given after the service is over and so how do
38:34
you contact those persons who have given if they have not left an address um if they have not left information um
38:42
yes we we we put some things in place and we continue to um we continue to make announcements and
38:50
say to people don't forget you have to fill out your form if you're giving more than the threshold over the threshold you'd have to
38:56
yeah but there are visitors that may come in and give what do you do so it's it's something that is very difficult to
39:02
manage um because you don't have and this is when we talk about risk
39:07
the risk assessment these are some of the things that we have to treat within the risk assessment what is the risk of persons coming in
39:13
and dropping money and you can't determine who they are how how do you mitigate against that
39:20
and so some of the measures we have taken given all that i have said
39:25
some of the measures that we have taken as an organization now i i wanted to to reiterate
39:32
that remember while we have we have 120 church 120 churches each church
39:39
operates as we as far and not all of them are under fiu supervision but each church that is under fiu
39:47
supervision each entity must establish their own way of meeting being compliant
39:56
with the regulations and what we have done to help because as i said it is new
40:02
um this this whole legislation has plunged us into into some new norms and so what we have
40:08
done as the national council we have attempted to
40:13
standardize some of the approaches so that we can help our churches go through this process and
40:19
what do i mean by that uh so we have um developed new
40:24
membership application forms um a standardized forms across so all of our 120 churches would be
40:31
using the same forms we have standardized some of our policies because a big part of of
40:38
of um of this would be our accounting um the accountability as far as finances
40:45
um the finances are concerned so what we have also done we have asked our churches to migrate
40:52
from one um one accounting platform to another accounting platform so we can
40:57
have some kind of seamless way that our accounting our our accounting is done
41:03
so we have church it may be a little expensive for some who are already operating but we have asked churches as of um to
41:10
go back to 19 2019 and 2020 and migrate their kong so
41:15
we all use a standardized approach what we are also doing is providing ongoing tr we have ongoing
41:22
trade training for our churches as far as the development of these compliance policies
41:30
remember we talk about this being um in some cases very technical requirements and the
41:37
truth is that some of our churches we do not have demand power we do not have these skill sets in there
41:42
to be able to to handle those but yet we have to meet the requirements
41:47
and so what we are doing is training um our churches training our pastors training our members
41:54
in terms of how do we develop so we would have some skills in-house how do we develop our
42:00
compliance policy and and so both the standardization and the training is helping us to to get
42:07
through uh this process and so uh and i want to conclude by sharing our
42:15
position and so while i have identified some of the struggles that we we have we
42:22
are having with the legislation we we really believe that the laws are needed
42:28
we understand the reason for the implementation and any any any approach or any attempt to
42:36
address money laundering and terrorist financing um or organization would be ready to be
42:42
compliant and assist in many respect the legislation will go a long way in helping fbos not
42:49
just us but all fbos and other entities to adopt best practices because in fact that's
42:56
how we see it we really see the legislation as best practices and in fact
43:02
we we we may be the first organization to say it has helped us
43:07
and it is helping us and we find that while as we said it is new to our
43:13
organization we are struggling uh we find that the our leadership and our pastors
43:21
are very inclined to to be compliant
43:26
the other thing is that there are clear indications from the legislation that it can help us
43:32
to preserve the the integrity of our operations and um you know there's always this
43:38
question mark over churches and money and so on and this is certainly the legislation um it's certainly
43:45
helping us to to to preserve the integrity um what however we view the legislation
43:52
as a one-size-fits-all and clearly some some some parts of
43:58
the legislation not fit in us at all um i what i would have done is just pull out a few um of those
44:05
um the the ones that that that um impact us greatly i would have pulled
44:11
out a few but when when you look at the legislation um it it doesn't in all instances
44:20
take into consideration the uniqueness of fbos and so they in in many cases so
44:27
things that are applicable to the financial services sector and will work well for them it does not
44:33
work for us it doesn't work for us um some aspects
44:41
of the legislation it has the the the um potential of affecting the viability of
44:46
fbos um especially in relation to in relation to giving um as i said people um given is
44:54
something that is so private and so on and when when people feel that they have to and i'm not talking only about
45:02
i'm not talking only about our membership um we receive support external to our churches and so if we
45:10
have to go to um those who support us and say of the fellow to a source of fun
45:16
or you know that kind of thing people are going to be less willing to um to support us
45:23
we understand internally i mentioned giving for members of the church is an act of
45:28
worship and so our members may be more inclined to continue giving um however
45:34
they support we get external so our our membership external to our
45:40
churches we can see that drying up if we impose these additional um this legislation in a a major aspect
45:49
of the function of the church is your is our social responsibility and of course if if given is impacted then our
45:57
our social responsibility in some way that will be impacted as well
46:03
um we see a need for for the fbos to lobby the government
46:10
and and i'm speaking specifically i'm saying that because we view the
46:16
legislation as being a one size fit all there is a need for the government to review this
46:23
legislation and be a little more sensitive because some of those requirements i
46:29
um spoke i spoke to um the source of funds i spoke to because it's difficult
46:34
managing some of these requirements in the context of the church it is difficult managing it in the
46:40
context of of our our resources and and when i talk about resources i'm talking about both
46:46
of our financial and our human resources we are not structured we don't have that kind of
46:52
internal structures that structure that allow us the um the latitude
46:57
to to um do some of the things that the legislation is asking us to do um as
47:03
i said it is labor intensive in some in some instances and as i said some churches
47:09
may have one employee some have two employees and and definitely um will not be able to respond
47:16
positively to some of these the requirements of the legislation
47:21
i think that's the end any questions
47:30
[Music] thank you so much miss charles if we were in the igds we'll give you a
47:36
igdsr seminar round of applause thank you so much for taking the time
47:43
um we do have some questions and i would just like to remind everyone
47:50
if you do have questions feel free to post them in the chat it will be really good if we can see
47:56
your questions so i have a few questions um i'll group them is that okay with you michelle's yes
48:03
i'll group them and then wrong we were um things i have i'll give you three the first question
48:11
candice i see you the first question is who are eligible to be members of
48:18
boards what are the criteria rule and function um there's that one hold on for the
48:26
other one um how and when
48:31
does the fiu become fully um involved this is michelle it is she
48:38
asked is it when the church has funds over a specific amount
48:46
so the first one is who are members of the board yeah who are eligible three members of the board the second
48:52
one is how and when does the fiu become involved is it when the church has
48:57
funds over a specific amount um take those two now please
49:04
and that's michelle and candace okay so so in response 31st um
49:11
really the the um the constitution and bylaws of the pentecostal assemblies of the west
49:16
indies allows allows for the church
49:22
to elect its board it allows for the pastor to
49:29
a point aboard so so we have two conditions so in the first instance we have the the church kind of
49:35
uh can elect the board and we have a pastor that can appoint a board
49:42
but they once the pastor appoints then the church must validate the
49:49
appointment so so so the church can appoint the church can have an election and they can elect let me use
49:57
the right words so the church can elect a board the pastor can appoint if the pastor
50:04
appoints the church validates but the church has the right to elect
50:12
those they want to serve on on the board and so forth for different churches it may it may it
50:18
may um work a little differently so in some churches the church may have an election and like
50:24
elect board members i i i want to believe that in most cases
50:30
i want to believe in most cases the the um the appointment the boards are appointed
50:36
and not elected because when the when the board is appointed it means that you have
50:42
um someone who is looking at the skill sets of those persons who are coming on to serve
50:47
um um and having that kind of that balance of persons on the board servant who is
50:53
able to help in terms of the management of the um the management of the church
51:00
question two how and when the fiu comes involved okay so when you submit i i mentioned
51:07
earlier on the application process requires the applicant to fill out two forms
51:13
so you fill out one form that goes to the register general department and the second form both of them
51:20
actually go um both of them go to the register general and the register general
51:25
in turn sends the fiu application directly to the fiu so they just check
51:33
make sure you fit your answer all the questions and so on and they send that off to the fiu once the income
51:40
and i mentioned it earlier on once the previous year's income is over 500 000
51:48
you are automatically under the supervision of the fiu and so that
51:55
application goes to the fiu once the fiu gets it this they will write you a letter they
52:00
will write the entity a letter saying you are now under the supervision of the
52:05
fiu but the the sole criteria is the that annual income and as i said it
52:13
speaks to the income of the previous year so if you had something unusual happening so it could be a small church
52:19
you know a very small church but le and i'll give you an example we ever had a couple churches that fell
52:24
into that bracket so they are doing a building fund and they're raising fund for something and
52:30
other churches and districts are supporting them so they would have collected a substantial amount of money that would
52:36
have led their income to appear as if and once it fell in in that
52:44
income year you are now seen as a church that is earning over half a million dollars and you are
52:50
now under um under the supervision of the fiu the question is whether
52:55
that is a sufficient criteria um for for for for supervision but but but
53:01
that's how you get under fiu supervision okay um
53:06
two two more questions um one can the compliance can the compliance person be outsourced
53:15
and take this one for me it's coming from kathy hello kathy thanks for joining us
53:20
do churches and mpu nps in developed countries have to comply
53:28
with similar regulations so question first question um
53:36
if the service can be outsourced absolutely yes it can be it can be um
53:42
the the the the challenge as a again i say there's a financial implication
53:48
because this is a professional yeah this is a professional so two things let
53:53
me mention here yes they can be outsourced but the person must be approved listen
53:58
there is a very extensive process that takes place in disapproval this person
54:04
is actually investigated so the persons the persons whose name
54:10
you are submitting as your compliance officer um and so we have
54:15
in our churches we have excellent persons that we feel can be good compliance officers but that is not up to us
54:20
so we submit you submit a resume and so on but the fiu undertakes a a a an investigation
54:28
and they determine so they must approve the person so yes the person can be outsourced but
54:34
they must be approved by the fiu
54:40
and so the other one i'm not aware i'm not aware whether um other countries what are the
54:47
requirements okay so i have another and it says uh contributions that are
54:54
received over a specific amount and where a source of funds is not available
55:02
how does the legislation treat with that and also thanks candice has power
55:09
amended their constitution and by laws to meet the requirements of the fiu candice
55:15
again candice hassani aplenty talked about okay okay so let me answer
55:22
um we we realize that there are some amendments that are required
55:29
the the amendment of the bylaws and constitution is not a simple thing uh the next time the
55:38
the general executive meets is in 2022 that can only be done yes um so that was supposed to happen in
55:45
2020 because of the pandemic um because of the pandemic we had to
55:50
um put it off and so the next time it happens and certainly there are a list of things
55:55
on there for constitutional review and and this certainly would be one of
56:00
them okay christy i i hear you and i see you
56:05
christy is asking well what legislation applies to faith-based organizations
56:12
um she thanks christie for clarifying she's saying for instance the appointment of a compliance officer
56:18
what what is that legislation you know it's it's let me go back to
56:25
can i just let me just let me
56:33
the financial obligation regulation now the financial obligation regulation
56:40
where anywhere in that um legislation where you see listed
56:46
business it refers to any business other than the financial so you'd see in
56:53
in in in um it stayed the way it is stated in the legislation
56:59
financial institution unlisted business so fbos fall under that category that is
57:05
called listed business so anywhere in that legislation you see they did the term listed business they are speaking to us
57:14
wow okay okay any other questions i'm seeing
57:21
i'm actually allowing peoples to come off their mic now and share with us any questions any
57:28
concerns any comments because i think michelle you know has given us a lot to think about
57:34
um for me well i would love if you can just that five thousand one
57:42
hundred dollar u.s access could you just revisit that for me um in
57:48
terms of of what does that um speak to so okay so remember we are required
57:56
to check these lists to determine whether persons that are coming in
58:02
as and i am making the connection between membership and donors because you can't
58:10
separate them so once a person once a person um becomes a member of the
58:16
ch of a church they automatically become a donor and so what the the legislation is
58:23
saying is that before we we we embrace such persons now because we are going to be receiving
58:28
money from them we need them to check they are so they give us um three lists and i was looking at the
58:35
one at the top which is the united nations list and it's in a format
58:41
way so there are two issues one is that there is a uh an online list that you can access
58:48
but that is not regularly updated um and so we also have that question how
58:55
how often do we have to check this list so a good person may come in church let's just for conversation
59:01
somebody a decent person may come in church and they decide to go astray how often should we check to see
59:08
if persons whose name who were not on the list previously if they're on the list no
59:14
how often so we don't have that kind of guidance um but we are told that we need to check the list
59:21
to ensure that those persons they are persons whose names are flagged because they are involved in and and in
59:28
some cases their accounts were frozen and all of those things so they are they are their names are
59:33
flagged in these lists and for our because remember if if we find one of them in one of our
59:40
congregation the compliance officer must not report that person to the fiu yeah
59:49
if they're giving money because no we where they get any money to give you know those kinds of things and so the list helps us the list um
59:57
is a compilation of those persons who are red flagged because
1:00:03
they are in breach of one of some some aspect of the law either they are suspected to be involved in in in in
1:00:12
money laundering or financing of terrorism that's well now i am i would just like
1:00:19
to highlight the fact that um michelle is the second um press
1:00:24
presenter on the fiu um in february we had former
1:00:30
um former fiu employee um senator lash medial on the
1:00:37
content of the law and after and if you wish to look at uh the different presentations on the
1:00:44
fiu it will be on the igds website but thanks kathy for telling us we will in
1:00:50
fact approach gfiu around these questions because this is a series that we really would like to engage in
1:00:56
um in terms of advocating for some middle ground in terms of how we move
1:01:02
forward not only for our faith-based partners but our civil society partners so i see
1:01:08
nicole's hand is up for a long long time so
1:01:14
nicole you want to ask a question sure afternoon everybody is there any
1:01:20
guidance to any new entity that may be coming on and maybe thinking about registration
1:01:26
in terms of how you may guide them through that process i have to give some credit to the registered generals department
1:01:33
because they have come a long way um we are here on something into the
1:01:39
process um the process is much simpler they they have provided there are a list
1:01:47
of documents that you must provide as i said earlier they have provided
1:01:53
an avenue now we we because we were first uh uh you know our organization and
1:01:59
number four church in the first in line we experienced it back and forth they have now introduced
1:02:04
as i said where you can send your your application in they vet your application so you don't
1:02:10
need to be in there three times and four times and being told different things by different person so the process is much
1:02:17
easier you must have your records if if your finances are not up to date and so on you will
1:02:24
have a little difficult time because you need to provide information you must also have the willingness i'll tell you
1:02:31
something when this process started um the the the the board member so when i
1:02:38
registered so when i registered the first entity um only one person's name was on it
1:02:46
and i had no problem it went through easy when the other persons went in they are
1:02:52
now saying to you um all of your board members the names of your board members
1:02:58
must now be on this form and so one of the things i would advise you'd
1:03:04
need to get the consent of your board members whether they want to be part of this process
1:03:09
because some people don't want i don't want my name you know that kind of thing i don't want my name in anything with the government
1:03:15
and so we must get the agreement of board members we want um members that are willing to be part
1:03:22
of the process because they also have to sign the form um they are core controllers so so the persons that
1:03:28
called their controllers and they have equal responsibilities where compliance is concerned equal
1:03:36
responsibility the other thing i'd say to you i know the um the um the deadline the deadline has shifted
1:03:44
several times the new deadline now is i think it's june i think the government's serious about um
1:03:51
the the if you don't if you're not um registered on time i think is is um seven years in jail and fifty
1:03:59
thousand dollars i don't know we don't want um organizations to be operating
1:04:04
outside of of those regulations so if you're gonna operate ensure that you get in there get your
1:04:10
registration done in time the process is much easier and let's be compliant
1:04:16
okay it's interesting um michelle's you're saying the same thing um senator lush media said let's be
1:04:24
compliant with writing us um misha as we still with you you know we have another question i should say
1:04:32
oh canis how are fbos going about raising the issue with the
1:04:40
government their challenges of this legislation um now michelle's could only talk speak for power here
1:04:46
so she's not speaking their fears in general um talk to us we initially
1:04:54
we initially um thought that our organization um
1:05:01
um would address our concerns um as far as the legislation is
1:05:07
concerned and write a letter to the attorney general that was our initial um thinking but we
1:05:15
we pull back a little bit and we we understand there is strength in numbers and so what we are doing is lobbying our
1:05:22
colleagues in other faith-based organizations because we feel in that way the the collective approach
1:05:30
would have much more impact if anything has to be done i'll tell you though we have said to our
1:05:37
churches um i i i learned a phrase many years ago comply and then complain
1:05:44
so we we are come comply let me let me hear some to say here as well
1:05:49
that we have even encouraged churches that are not falling on the fiu supervision
1:05:57
we are encouraging our churches to to adopt some of the same um policies some of the same
1:06:04
requirements of the legislation because it is good practice it is best practice
1:06:10
and so it doesn't not because we are we don't fall on the fiu compliance and
1:06:15
this is what we when we treat with our churches we are treated with our churches as a whole we are saying to everyone there are some
1:06:22
really good aspects of the legislation please comply even if you don't fall under the
1:06:28
regulation it's good for us it's it's good for the reputation of the of of our churches
1:06:35
yeah and so we we continue to encourage them adopt some of these principles and so
1:06:41
as i said earlier when we are standardizing some of our things and we are helping them to adapt some of these measures
1:06:47
so that um we will operate um with some level of credibility okay um i'm saying thanks so much
1:06:55
miss shells oh you make me happy um i'm seeing kathy kathy shepherd from kaiser
1:07:03
thanks kathy kathy's saying she has to leave but she's very grateful for the information illuminating presentation
1:07:10
religion and for your generosity of sharing yeah she's saying it's very useful
1:07:16
information is there anyone who would like to come off their mic i mean i am facing to close i know
1:07:23
time is of the essence but is there anyone who would like to i'm i'm opening up two questions of the
1:07:30
mind please anyone
1:07:36
and i have a thank you again from church of christ you can appear to everyone
1:07:41
thank you for the information it's useful and i have our msc students can
1:07:48
this arthur frederick also saying thank you so very much for this information
1:07:56
we really recognize as members of the igbs that
1:08:03
this is something that it is a question of inclusion
1:08:10
how to smaller uh whether it's organizations whether it's faith-based
1:08:15
or uh community-based or civil society organization how do they get into a space where they
1:08:23
can effectively comply um but you want to reflect a bit on the way
1:08:29
which size matters in this situation um i think
1:08:36
one of the things that that is working for us as i said is standardization
1:08:44
and so from a central office our our national office we do
1:08:51
understand i'll i'll tell you in some of these cases some of those churches when they were
1:08:57
doing their application forms i said let me see it before you take it in let me help you
1:09:02
let me vet your forms and so so you really need to walk people through the process and
1:09:10
i'll tell you because it's something that is new there's it requires some more effort it
1:09:17
requires some more encouragement throughout the the first registration process
1:09:22
i'd have to say to people when they called to complain i'd say to people i'd say listen to me they're learning and relearning because
1:09:29
you could tell when i went in with my first registration a person who did it and he registered she she said to me
1:09:35
this is the first time i'm doing this you know and so we understand that the process is
1:09:40
going to be a little difficult because we are unfamiliar with it they are unfamiliar with it they are
1:09:46
sometimes and so we were really very patient in spite of the many times we had to go
1:09:52
and fix this and tell us change the same thing ten times but we understood the the purpose of
1:09:57
doing it and we also understood because it is new that is is going to take some time
1:10:03
um for us to to get used to it and so it really requires us holding the hands of these smaller
1:10:09
entities being there helping them through the process we have had their times i actually literally went to
1:10:16
the register general with them you know it requires because it's also new
1:10:22
think about think about a church um and use us as an example think about
1:10:27
a church who um you have a pastor who has been there for 50 years
1:10:33
he this is something absolutely new to him he is scared he is very concerned where
1:10:38
is this taking us what does what's the end result what does it mean does it mean that you know because we are not used to that
1:10:45
and so it really requires a lot of um effort it requires um
1:10:51
the training one of the things we have been able to do successfully we have had a lot of online training and
1:10:58
as i said shared information when we when someone has had an experience they shared with us we share
1:11:04
we had these bulletins going out almost every two days we had a bulletin going on this is what is happening so people
1:11:10
are you know aware of what is happening um they they they learn to appreciate
1:11:15
the process and understand and we continue to say this is going to work for us this is going to help us
1:11:21
because for us big pitch is this compliance helps the integrity of our organization
1:11:28
and that is that is a huge thing for us the compliance and lining
1:11:33
of that with the integrity of our organization okay
1:11:38
great um i would stop here because i think that those are
1:11:45
some really excellent closing words uh which michelle's have shared with us
1:11:51
i would just like to say thank you to her for taking her time to share her
1:11:57
experience with us thank you for pauwi um pentecostal assemblies of the
1:12:03
west indies and we are this is something that the igbs is very interested
1:12:09
in saying as we close um feel free to join the mailing list if you are another type of organization
1:12:17
a civil society organization and you want to share your experience with us please
1:12:23
feel free to email us at idbs.outreach
1:12:28
at sda.uwi.edu i see it's right there in the chat and
1:12:36
um please feel free to join the um igds mailing list just to have access to
1:12:44
these presentations we are going to do some more presentations on this series because
1:12:50
what we're really doing is we're working with the organizations to
1:12:57
ensure that they have they have an advocate in us and we want
1:13:02
to create that space where we can work towards ensuring that this
1:13:08
um this npu bill works for you for the free for the wider society so ms charles
1:13:16
i thank you so much i have to thank michelle cicita hal catherine chan mercedes chanel glasgow
1:13:24
and i see several thomas austin thank you so much for being with us today she's saying thank you
1:13:31
a very informative session thanks again valerie charles for taking the time and
1:13:37
we appreciate you everyone thank you for being with us this is our second presentation in our npo
1:13:46
series the npo act 2019 and trust me stay tuned because we
1:13:51
are going to have at least another one just so that we can get a sense of how
1:13:57
we can make our legislation work for us so this is the ihds deborah mcphee
1:14:03
saying thank you so much and goodbye thank you for joining us have a great day everyone
